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Inside Marketing Design at ConvertKit – Episode 1

welcome to the start of a brand new series this is inside marketing design and in each episode I'll be giving you an inside look into how marketing design works at various different tech companies if we haven't met before then hi I'm Charlie I am marketing design lead at convertkit which is a remote tech company making email marketing software for creators and I thought I would kick off episode 1 with the thing I know best and that is how marketing design works at convertkit I'm gonna be telling you about what role marketing design plays within our company the types of projects that I work on the process that I use to get work done and in future episodes I'll be getting on calls with my peers in the industry with marketing designers working at other companies and hearing how things work for them I think it's gonna be really interesting to hear about the similarities and the differences and that we're all gonna learn a lot I wanted to create this series because there is so much design content out there that's focused on product design UI UX even freelancing you know there's a lot out there for that but US marketing designers there's just not so much for us I want to learn from my fellow marketing designers and be seeing more marketing design related content and so that's what we're gonna get into we're gonna dig deep into this marketing design niche in this series inside marketing design is available in both audio and video form video on my youtube channel slash ari TV and audio in well hopefully whatever podcasting app you use search for inside marketing design on there and subscribe to it you can also get links to all of the episodes on inside marketing design dot c– oh all right with all that said let's get in to the details of today's episode like I said we are going to be digging deep in these episodes we're gonna be talking in detail about processes about company structure and tools and all of that and it's you gritty marketing design details so let me tell you about how marketing his own work [Music] first off a little about the company itself we are a fairly small tech company there's about 53 something like that people on the team at the moment and we do have a goal to keep the team as small as possible so that's been growing very slowly over the three years that I've been there like I said before we make email marketing software for creators and it was that target audience that really drew me to wanting to work at the company in the first place I'm a creator myself you know I've got a YouTube channel got a podcast those types of things and so I was excited about the opportunity to design for that audience and it has been really fun we are fully remote so the company is based in the US but we don't actually have headquarters or like an office anywhere everybody works from home fully distributed most of the team are in the US because the company is based there but I'm over here in Europe and there's a few other people on the team based in Europe as well in terms of the makeup of the team I am the only marketing designer on the team we do have three product designers and then Nathan our CEO is a designer himself as well has a design background so he'll step into design for the product every now and then too but yeah I'm the only one handling design from the marketing side I sit within the marketing team so my manager is the director of marketing you know just in terms of the org structure of the company we don't have an official design team like there's no head of design or anything like that running a design team but all of us designers in the company do gather together as a design team quote unquote every two weeks for a design meeting where we discuss like I don't know any design topics that need to be talked about to do with our brand design system whatever and that's also a time when we can ask for feedback from each other as well so that's really helpful but yeah really I am part of the marketing team and that is where the marketing design role sits at convertkit because we have this like company value like I said before of keeping the team small we really do lean on outsourcing for projects every now and then like working with freelancers we're not afraid to do that that's been quite different from me I haven't had that experience at other companies previous places I've worked if there was like a need arose within the company they would hire to fill it but at convertkit we try and see what we can do to increase our capacity whether it's working with a freelancer improving our processes or whatever to be more efficient before we decide that we need an actual person to fill this role on the full-time team so we work with freelancers on the marketing side there's a graphic designer who works for us part-time on a freelance basis which is really helpful I'll go into more details of how that works and how that fits in with my role later on but yeah I suppose that is extra capacity in the marketing design space within the team with this part-time graphic designer so that's a little bit about the team and how we divide up the work that gets done in terms of my responsibilities as the marketing design lead as the name suggests I lead the marketing design efforts at convertkit so the lead in my title isn't at this stage like a people management type of leadership it's more like project management that yeah I'm responsible for the design of anything that's not the product basically so we're talking the marketing website any sort of branded assets and imagery things for events all of that is stuff that I am responsible for it doesn't mean that I need to be the one designing it because like I said we have this part-time graphic designer Holly who handles a lot of the imagery needs which frees me up to work on the website which I really love love having that capacity but it is still my responsibility to coordinate getting all that stuff done if it makes sense and because my manager is not a design manager but he's the director of marketing for the company so you know handling all of the marketing efforts that means that it's really my responsibility we need to be checking things our own brand that they're like setting the standard for the level of quality we want to meet with our design efforts and that I'm not having my work like design approved as such I'm obviously getting feedback from the team on everything that I do and like getting final sign-off on the information etc I am responsible for making sure things are on brand at convertkit and that they are at the level of quality that we want to have happen because we're a small team that also means that I end up doing not just design work like I said I do project management stuff as well I lead our site squad so we break our teams up into squads for various content areas I suppose it's a way to describe it within the marketing team we have a Content squad who handles the production of all of our content that we put out we have the affiliate squad which handles our affiliate marketing needs a data squad and we have the site squad which at this stage is just myself and a front-end developer Cory before Cory joined the team about like a little over a year ago I was also responsible for coding everything on marketing site but I'm very grateful that we decided that there was a need there to hire a front-end developer full-time so that I could focus on the design stuff because yeah before that I was splitting my time between designing meant also bringing my designs to life through code so I lead this site squad which means I'm managing projects that we're doing on our marketing website I'm also the one who does all my own like user research we don't have a separate researcher on the team or anything like that so I'm doing research and running a/b tests as well because one of the main metrics that I'm responsible for within the business is our website conversion rate so that's what I'm thinking about and what I'm always trying to improve all right let's talk about what the marketing team at Bukit focuses on because obviously what the marketing team focuses on ends up being what I focus my work on we're very digital I convertkit I would guess that's the same case for the majority of tech companies I suppose we'll find out in this series it's very rare for me to have to design print stuff there is the odd occasion where like we run a conference as a company once a year and sometimes we'll have a sponsored booth at other conferences so you know might be print stuff to do with that like a flyer or a stand or something but for the most part is it also the work is designing improvements to our website where the rents a new page or an improvement on an existing page or it's creating imagery to promote the various content and like on online workshops we're putting out and like I mentioned before we have for graphic designer Holly who handles most of the imagery needs now which is cool so she doesn't most of that stuff and I mostly focus my time my design time anyway on the website as a marketing team at convertkit we're very good at creating content and where we're trying to improve is in promoting that content so we put a lot of time and effort into making things and then like once it's done we just want to go ahead and make the next thing but obviously the job of a marketing team part of it is to be promoting the stuff that you're making obviously and so that's like yeah an area that we're working on right now we're trying to do less one-off things and create more systems in place and be reusing assets so that as a small team our efforts are going further we'll run promotions that the whole team works on like we've done in cyber monday for the past few years and we run challenges where it's like 30 days to build landing page and get subscribers and you can win prizes based on that that sort of thing is always really fun to work on bringing the whole team together we also are just like I said producing really great content so we have someone on the marketing team who is a full-time storyteller where she's interviewing people who use kombucha and telling their stories about their businesses their lives and it's like obviously the point is to promote convertkit but like sometimes the stories don't even mention convertkit you know we're kind of playing the long game there with just wanting to produce really high quality stuff and get it out there and that's like what we want to be known for so yeah I love I love that attitude towards things I love being a part of that because it really helps me to set a high standard for my designs as well I mentioned a be testing before but that is a huge focus for us as the team as well because we are a small team there is eight people on the marketing team kind of like you know no one's role is duplicated either everyone is responsible for a separate area of marketing or like you know a different skill set we do a lot of testing because of that because we want to make sure that our efforts are like we're maximizing our efforts so we have in the past used a tool called North Star where we'll set a goal of like improving the site conversion rate for example and everyone is adding to this tool their ideas for improving the website conversion rate then we try them out measure them see what works and then we know what – like double down on so I really like that way of working as well it's really fun and it helps us like learn things about where to focus our efforts since I mentioned North Star let's vary quickly touch on some more tools that are a part of our process before we get into like the details of getting a project done which is what I'm going to talk about next so the design software that we use at convertkit is figma we switched from sketch a couple years ago and we really loved figma because it's collaborative and figma kind of acts as our file storage system as well because every one is all the designers are in figma and we can just see everyone else's projects in there I personally use Dropbox to store my own files but we also have like Google Drive as a company for accessing documents and things like that I think in future if our team grows we're gonna need more of like a collaborative design team file storage system to be able to easily access assets and things like that but right now because of figma everything is in there as a component and we can all access things everyone else and the company can access all of our branded assets through our website even like anyone in the world could actually convert con such brand they can get all our logos and some imagery and things like that so yeah there hasn't been a need yet for a team wide design file storage system outside of figma but I have a feeling that will arise and I also have a feeling maybe that might shock some people listening I don't know let me know if you think that's weird that we don't all have access to each other's like saved assets I suppose I do also still use the Adobe suite for a lot of things definitely for any sort of print design but also for creating assets here and there to like recently I've been working in After Effects to create some animated things to go on our website and some product gifts that sort of thing so that definitely still gets use our marketing website is built on WordPress and we use a bootstrap framework on it we mostly just use like the grid and like structure system from bootstrap though not so much like the button system and you know all the other components then of course because we're a remote company we use slack for communication Basecamp for project management zoom for video calls and I've also been using a tool called ping pong for remote like user interviews that I do with creators to get their thoughts on our website well I don't know if that was interesting or not or if that was just me naming a bunch of tools in a row but that's sort of like the setup that we work with let's talk about the process now because this is honestly the part that I'm most excited to learn about from other people and so I want to share in detail what it looks like to get work done on a marketing design project at convertkit if it's a smaller project like if someone says hey I need an image for this social media profile or like to give to this conference put in their booklet or whatever and I sometimes I'll do it but for the most part now that we have Holly working part time for us on a freelance basis I send that over to her to get done we do have like a form that people in the company can fill out when they have a small need like that but honestly it hasn't had much use yet I haven't done a very good job of instituting that as part of the process so for the most part it just comes from someone tagging me and slack or in Basecamp being like hey can you do this for me and I'll handle it from there I do think that needs some more structure and some more automation to it but yeah let's let's focus on talking about a bigger project though because I feel like that's that's just the work that I enjoy doing more so that's what I'm talking about a bigger project for me is usually a new webpage or an update or overhaul of an existing page on our site sometimes it might be like a whole microsite for example our conference is a separate website but for the sake of this example let's talk about a new page on the marketing site these usually come about when someone at the company spots like a need or an area of opportunity for an improvement or sometimes it's something that I just see as well through my research that I'm doing or like you know improvements that I want to make it might be for example and we're launching a new feature as part of our product so we need a new feature page for it maybe like at the moment I'm working on a redesign of our homepage to fit with a new direction we're going in for brand advertising well maybe for example I would have been doing a bunch of research and been hearing from people that there's these like hiccups on our pricing page that are stopping them from from going further and so I want to redesign the pricing page to work on improving that there's not like a formal briefing process where it's like okay formal brief submitted Charlie this is where you working on I like this way of working I like that it feels more like the need arises as a company and we all just start moving that direction and start going there rather than me having to be asked what to do and also like having the freedom to choose my own projects or see I think this needs to be done and that I have the trust in the leadership of our company to go ahead and do that whoever the project has risen once we've decided we're working on it what usually happens first is a conversation we talk about what needs to happen with this page like why are we needing it what sort of information do we need to express on it I actually really love redesigning an existing page it's one of my favorite things about being an in-house designer because then I can look back at the data that we have on the existing page and be like okay this is how it's working and these are some like areas of things we can improve so that's always really fun so from a conversation which will happen either asynchronously in Basecamp or over a video call I'll then sort of synthesize and not a not really write a brief as such but more make some notes about what I think the page needs to do and from there I'll start to think about what content would go on the page and by content I do not mean the copy I don't mean the exact words that will end up on the page we have a very talented writer on our team who will write the marketing pages but often I'll kick off a project by thinking about the content it needs to go on the page so for example we need to talk about this part of our landing pages feature and then maybe we should go into talking about this part these four points really need to express but that sort of thing that's what I mean by content so I'm not writing the copy but I'm figuring out in general what we're going to talk about sometimes that comes from other people but usually I'm the one synthesizing that from a conversation that I've had from there I go ahead and create a wireframe based on the content maybe it's because I'm the only marketing designer maybe it's because we're remote or I don't know just the way that we do things but I would say the process is collaborative but we also like if you thought think about a process as two lines of me being one line the rest of the team being in other they sort of like come together then go apart again throughout a project so when I'm in the wire framing say I'm just on my own doing wireframing and I'll only really share it with the team when I'm ready for feedback when I'm at a stage where I'm like I need some help or maybe I'm pretty happy with this and I need approval from you if you think it's the right idea for me to go forward with I really like to only ask for feedback when I need it so because we don't have regular design reviews or anything like that like other companies might do I can really choose when I want to share and even though we have our design team meetings every two weeks I might not share something every two weeks with feedback because I only want to share when I feel like I'm ready to receive that feedback and when I need it because if there's still things that I could be doing myself I don't want to waste people's time by asking for feedback too early so after I've wireframes and I'm ready for feedback I share it with the team I need to do this usually by uploading the design to envision and leaving some tour points and comments about it we do that instead of getting on a call and me presenting it as such because then everyone can digest in their own time and also like use envision to leave comments as well with their own thoughts and at this stage what I'm asking people for is their thoughts on the structure of the page because like I said there hasn't been a formal brief or anything like that happen so this is the first time that people are really seeing in detail the content areas that I've put on the page and the amount of space approximately I have left for each point so this is a time when say out writer or you know some may be the product manager it can say hey you've left at this point or I don't think this is going to be enough room to talk about everything we need to say about this particular feature so that needs some rethinking or maybe this is actually more important needs to be moved up the hierarchy that's a sort of feedback that I'm looking for at this point so once I've got the feedback from the team on the structure of the page and we're kind of happy with the direction that it's going in that is when usually our copywriter Danny will start to work on the exact copy for the page and meanwhile I'll be off like you know think about line splitting apart again I'll be off doing the design side of things I tend to share with with Danny and also with Cory the developer much more often during the process basically showing them things being liked I'm thinking about changing this up so that changes the amount of space you have to write is this kind of fit do you think so that's kind of like a more more regular in contact and like feedback cycle with those two people during a project I often share with the other designers as well along the way especially in this more visual design phase that's what I call it I would love to know if anyone has a better word for this phase of a projects I'm sure you know what I'm talking about but I don't know if that's the best way to describe it but yeah in this phase I am likely to show the other designers a screen shot of like a certain element that I'm working on to get their thoughts like some quick thoughts and along the way when Danny finishes the copy she'll show it with me and I'll edit into the design obviously and that's when usually I'll share with the wider team for like a final feedback ish stage depending on like how complex the project has been there's no formal like sign-off on okay this page is ready to go but I'll always want to ensure that the person who the page like who requested the page is happy with it so say it's a page about our affiliate program that was requested by our affiliate manager I want to make sure that I get her feedback before we call it done and go into the build phase I also always want the opinion of the director of marketing my manager my boss but usually for the most part he just he trusts my opinion on things and like by this stage because he's been involved in giving feedback in earlier rounds you know I already know he's happy with the direction and that you know where we're going but once everyone's happy though that's when I'll prepare a page for builds I don't do any redlining or that sort of thing what preparing a page for build looks like for me is making sure I put just the final file into a separate page in figma because si design if you've watched my videos before and like watch some of my design videos you will have seen the many many canvases and frames that I end up with for a project with many different iterations so want to make sure that it's clear for kori which exact design he's meant to be building so I put that into a separate page I'll also write up a github issue with any particular it's about the page of functionality that needs to have referencing any I don't know any other pages on the site we've done something similar in the past because I know our site very well being the one who worked on it and like did the coding for it for three years so it's I don't know it's just helpful if I can point that out I'll also export any assets they need exporting and share a link to a Dropbox folder with him but yeah because I'm sharing the figma file it's the main way he's getting the design I just do not see the need for me to markup 20 pixel space between this thing you know he can use figma to very easily check that for himself and so I think that just saves everyone's time you know my time is better spent on moving on to the next project than it is on you know detailing every little thing in in the design when it's just as easy for Cory to click on it and see it for himself again there might be a controversial thing I don't know if that's the same case and other teams we're gonna find out in this series so Cory has all that info we'll usually we have a stand-up meeting as a site squad at the start and the end of every week so we'll talk about it in one of those as well just to make sure that he doesn't have any questions and is clear on what needs to happen he'll go ahead and build and he'll share with me for feedback when he gets to a point when he needs it how I give him feedback is by taking screenshots of the page using the chrome plug-in what does it call full page screenshot or something like that and then I'll add that to envision and leave my comments in line so it's clear for him which parts need some tweaking they once he's fixed slows and he feels like it's kind of was ready to go we'll share it with the wider team give them to look at it poke around the site and check for any bugs because as I said before small team we don't have a separate QA role on the marketing team to be checking for these so it's kind of like everyone's job but especially me and Cory's once the project is shipped to usually I will submit a data request to our data team so they have like a handy form that I can fill out where I'm like I want to know what's happening on the pricing page I don't know this isn't this thing this metric lets you know keep an eye on that and they'll put together a dashboard for me to measure that so that is kind of an overview of the process of getting some work done it convertkit it's very collaborative in the way that like anyone and everyone has the opportunity to get feedback or to have input worked in a project but it's also kind of independent in a way that I'm just trusted and like left to get the work done you know unless it's a marketing team wide promotion that I'm building something for does anything before as well usually I'm sitting around deadlines too and I'll do this all in collaboration with my manager but yeah for the most part there's a lot of independence there which really suits me attaboy but I know also probably maybe wouldn't be right for a lot of other people let's move on now and talk about performance and both how a project is measured like how do we know if a project has been successful but also my work as the marketing designer how my performance is evaluated so as a company at convertkit we use an okay our system for getting things done for setting goals that stands for objectives and key results if you haven't used that before a different company if you're interested in this I would highly recommend reading the book measure what matters I'll leave a link in the show notes in the description if you are interested in that but that really goes into the whole okay our setting process and like White House the business so on so so every year as a company we have okay our set which is set by the directors team our leadership team then every quarter each individual team will set team wait okay us so we have marketing team q2 okay ours these are set by our director but we also have an opportunity to give input to them to give feedback so that's really great that it's collaborative in that way and then as an individual we then set our own ok ours based on what we can do to contribute to the team ones if you're following me so I will look at our marketing team objectives and think about how my design work and like what I can do on our marketing site especially to help towards that and that from there is kind of sets what projects I'll be working on from the quarter we'd like to aim high with these and we like to say that achieving a hundred percent of an objective or a key result is like meant to be the stretch goal but if you had only achieved 80% of it then that's so okay – so for example if I said I wanted to interview ten creators and give their thoughts on the marketing site but only got to eight that would be okay because ten was a stretch goal performance reviews are more of a discussion about where you're at in your career in your role and what you're doing to progress and be moved to the next level more of like a long-term growth conversation as well of course as any like issues that have arisen in in your work being brought up as well but honestly I feel like performance reviewing at kombucha isn't a big scary thing like it perhaps has been for me at other companies because every two weeks I have a one-on-one with my manager and that's always a chance to discuss performance like I trust that if there is an issue he will bring it up with me in one of those meetings and so a performance review is never really a surprise it's more of like just formalizing the discussion and the performance reviewing process we have standardized salaries that convertkit I don't know if perhaps you might have seen my video that I did about that I shared all of the salaries for the five levels of the web design role at the company right now I am at a level four web designer I was moved up last year from a level three so around that time my performance reviews were all focused on like talking about how I can move up to this next level what skills I need to be demonstrating that sort of thing in order to get that promotion so yeah that's what the purpose of performance reviews I suppose at the company I saw projects themselves we like to set goals before we launch them we don't always do this though like if it's a promotion we might be wanting a certain number of signups a new page in our marketing site should be helping towards the overall conversion rate objective that sort of thing and so we have the data thing like I said who will produce charts and dashboards to measure all that stuff we like to do pre morton's and post-mortem sometimes when it's like a bigger project especially so pre-mortem is us talking about how we think this is gonna go any problems we anticipate any reaction we might anticipate and then a post-mortem is reviewing how the thing went kind of a morbid name for it yes so we have those discussions they get saved to base camp and there's always handy for us to be able to refer to later on when we come around to perhaps doing another version of that promotion of that project now I want to talk about challenges what are some of the main obstacles that I face in my role in getting my work done I would say the main challenge that I face as especially being the only designer at a company where we're wanting to say a small team but we also have super huge goals and like big things that we want to get done is balancing speed efficiency getting work done in a timely manner to like you know be able to move forward and move on to the next project balancing that with quality you know have very high standards for my designs I've had to learn to like I want to say pick my battles but that's not the right word more like pick my favorites for with projects so there'll be some projects that I do where I'm like I'm just gonna quickly get this done I'm not gonna go through a big long iteration process you just need an image okay boom here's an image it'll fill your needs you can promote that post or you know whatever the image is for getting that stuff done quickly to free up my time more to be spent on the higher impact projects like pages for a marketing site for example it sucks to not do your absolute very best like you know intense perfect work every time but it's just the realities of the job and honestly like even though it I think it felt like more of a challenge to start with now I kind of appreciate it because it gives me the freedom to just do something quickly so that I can free up time for the stuff that perhaps I'm more interested in because I'm sure you've gotten a sense from this this episode so far that I just love there's no anywhere it's one of my favorite things and now the challenge is getting people what they need or maybe what they don't even know they need those are two kind of different things let me explain early on there was obviously like way more work than I could handle as the only marketing designer and so when people would ask me for something I would often end up having to say no I'm sorry like I can't prioritize that right now there's just these other things in the business that require my attention more and so let's hold off on doing this thing for you which like sucks neftis to someone but because of that I feel like they became like a view in the company that I'm super busy I don't have capacity and so like you know design stuff it's hard to get it done now that we do have capacity I've got this whole like graphic designer working part-time on things we have like loads more capacity to get stuff done design wise but I worry that people have stopped asking because I was saying no early on if that makes sense so yeah that's something that I'm working through now is trying to encourage people to asking me for things and say we do have capacity we want to help let us know how design could make you know things better for whatever thing you're doing so yeah that's something that I'm working on to like build that trust back up I suppose and then I also touched on getting people what they don't know they need so we're a very like independent talented team we convert care and sometimes people will make things for themselves I'm often having to like step in when I see something happening see that someone's made this thing and be like hey um let me help you with that so sort of saying hey you need me rather than them saying I need you so yeah just keeping an eye on what's what's out there what people are doing within the company and stepping in when I need to to make sure that all of the visuals and assets that we're putting out are on brand and matching our quality standards inevitably there are things I miss and that is just a fact of life and guess what it's not the end of the world but it happens doesn't really matter that much it's just something that I want to say on top of it as much as possible because obviously your brand impression and like the level of quality of design impacts the quality people see in your new product unlike the opinion and they have of the brand so I do care about it a lot and I want to make sure I'm doing my best but inevitably some stuff does get missed that people try and do themselves but I I think we'll find in the series that maybe that's a common trait amongst many other in-house marketing designers more personally a challenge that I've been facing especially lately you know having been at the company for three years being the only marketing designer on the team has been really craving being pushed more in my designs because my manager isn't a design manager you know I can't really get the feedback from him at the level of detail that I need to really push my design skills I know that everything I'm doing is meeting the business goals and like you know it's good enough for that but I just I have higher hopes for myself I suppose and I just want to do even better and I want to make sure that I'm constantly improving so that's been a bit of a struggle for me lately being the only one who has all the context of the marketing site etc and being the only one really thinking about that all time like 24/7 almost yeah getting getting feedback from other people to really push me design-wise has been hard in these episodes I also really want to be asking all of the marketing designers they talked to what areas of growth they see for themselves I want to know what areas people are trying to push into and where they wanting to improve their plans for that for that growth and for me personally an area that I'm really looking to grow in and continue to work on is my like user research and testing I've absolutely loved learning how to conduct a user interview and watch someone use our site what questions to ask what prompts to give to get the right information that really helps me to improve it and also running tests like coming up with ideas for tests and hypothesis hypotheses for different design elements to test against each other the process of running all that just getting smarter with that making our website work a little harder for us and focusing our efforts so I'm not really enjoying learning that and wanting to grow in there even more something else I want to touch on is the impact that marketing design has at each company that I talk to because I think that marketing is I wouldn't say overlooked but it definitely wouldn't be viewed as the most important part of a business you know especially a tech company where product is usually the most important thing right you got to get the product in order to sell but I want to touch on the level of respect marketing designers feel and what opportunities they have for being involved in the rest of the company at convertkit we are a very transparent company so I always have a pretty good idea of what other teams are working on how the businesses are doing that sort of thing and we're also like everyone on the team not just me as a marketing designer but literally every single person is encouraged to share their opinion on a bunch of different business topics and the way that we're running the company in our company meetings that we have each week they're not really like a state of the union update meeting we have a little bit of that for five minutes at the start but the majority of the meeting is focused on a discussion topic so for example we had last year and a meeting about the how we think we're fair in an economic downturn what do we think the company needs to do to prepare etc it was really great meeting I learned a lot in it because I don't know much about the economy and that sort of thing and I was really glad we had that discussion before you know the coronavirus hit and we did see a bit of an economic downturn so it's cool to be asked to be involved in discussions like that and just feel like I play a bigger role in the business than just the pixels that I create for our marketing website in general though I do feel like marketing design is very highly respected in the company people are usually very enthusiastic well the work that I'm doing and so yeah I feel good about that lastly I always want to end each episode by talking to a marketing designer about their favorite parts of their job nice to end on a positive note and also just nice to hear like what other people love in their role and so for me like I said in when I talked about my areas for growth I'm loving testing and like being more involved with data and learning things that way that's one of my favorite parts of my job being able to have an idea for a test and having the independence and the freedom to go ahead and work with whoever I need to work with to make that happen I absolutely love doing that and I love learning things through seeing how people interact with the different design ideas that I have and then another thing I love about being an in-house marketing designer I think it also touched on it before is being able to iterate and improve on what I've done in the past I love being able to ship something get it out there see how it's doing and then get a chance to improve on it later on when perhaps my skills have increased as a designer I have new information new ideas whatever it's just really fun to be able to go back over your work in that way and think of ways you can do things better so that my friends is a look inside marketing design at convertkit I hope you found it interesting if there are any points that you wish I covered that I didn't I don't know it was hard to think about honestly what to talk about in this episode because you don't know what you don't know and things that seem very common and like I don't know just like I given to me might be really new and different to you so I don't know let me know what you think you can leave a comment on the YouTube video or tweet me at Charlie frankly I would love to hear your thoughts on this hear your thoughts on this episode this idea for a show are you excited for more in the future let me know about it I have some really exciting designers and companies lined up for you coming in future episodes so stay tuned for that and make sure you're subscribed inside marketing design Co will give you links to do all those things and I will see you in the next episode thanks for watching you listening bye [Music] you [Music]

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